Zach Nunn is a change management consultant and one of the co-founders of the podcast and movement Living Corporate. The goal of that platform is to tell Black and Brown stories related to the world of work. You think you’ve heard good conversations about diversity, inclusion, equity, and belonging, but you have not heard Living Corporate.
On the Living Corporate podcast, Zach and his team talk to all kinds of people and have honest conversations. They talk about things that aren’t normally discussed at work — or even in diversity inclusion programs. It is a terrific podcast that everybody needs to download and take a few minutes to listen to.
In the episode, Zach shares about the work he is doing. He explains why it has become his goal to create platforms in spaces that amplify and center Black and Brown voices at work. He has a perspective that causes him to speak with authority and answer the questions many of us are asking, especially regarding what we can do to help right now. Listen in for another conversation on big ideas to do things differently.
Living Corporate is a Movement
Living Corporate works towards making their content available to anyone and everyone, “And so our team is incredible because so when we talk about Real Talk in a Corporate World, it’s not just about having these long-form conversations. We want to create options for people who may not have the time to listen to a 45-minute conversation. What does it look like to create career tips, and simple career tips, and then medium-sized career conversations?”
Zach isn’t doing the work alone and is proud of his team. “Tristan Layfield is a resume and career consultant. And so Tristan has a show every Thursday called [“TAP In with Tristan”]. He’s literally talking about like, here are some basic things around resume, networking, career management.”
“Latesha Byrd is an executive career and leadership coach, diversity and inclusion coach. And she is phenomenal. So she’s talking about equity, really networking, getting the bag. She does quite a bit. And her platform continues to grow.”
“Amy C. Waninger is the CEO of Lead at Any Level. And so she’s a public speaker, an educator, a coach. She’s really focused on inclusive leadership behaviors. So she has a book called “Network Beyond Bias,” which is phenomenal.”
“It’s really pivoted and pointed to white leaders, thinking about, what does it really looks like to examine your network and move beyond some of the biases, both conscious and unconscious, to extend and engage Black and Brown folks, LGBTQ or slash queer folks, trans, nonbinary folks? What does it look like to really have an intersectional and an inclusive network? Because if your network is inclusive, then you’re going to be able to effect change and really drive a more inclusive world.”
Restructuring HR
When I listened to the Living Corporate podcast, I had two thoughts. The first is similar to what Zach says: What got you here won’t get you there. So all of these individuals in positions of power have clearly been complicit or just blew it, and it’s time for them to step out of the way. They’re not the ones who are going to deliver on social justice, on racial equality, on inclusion, all of that.
I also thought that we have these systems in place, and does it make sense to just de-center ourselves and seed power, or do we need to burn this to the ground? Do we need to burn HR to the ground? And this is a conversation I’ve been having for a very long time. It’s like the thesis of my work. But if what got us here won’t get us there, isn’t that really the institution of HR? It’s the institution of corporate America. Burn it the F down.
On what Zack learned early on in his career, “I started with a large retail company, and I was an HR manager. And I remember having these very altruistic visions of what my job really entailed, when in fact, those were big-box retailers. So HR’s job was to follow the binder. And that binder was, as I look back now. Because I was 20, yeah, I was 20 at the time, so that binder was really created by lawyers to mitigate risk in every capable way. … That binder, which you are instructed to follow to the letter, was not really built for any type of justice or equity or even accountability, for that matter. It was built from the lens of risk management.”
“When I think about HR today, I think that continues. And I think that HR is so, it’s empowered. So I’m not trying to demonize the space. I just think in a lot of ways they kind of operate as the police. They’re kind of like the police of an organization.”
“So human resources, they’re really fangless because of the power dynamics. So again, they become an executor of whatever the company’s will is. So they work very hand in hand with legal. Very rarely will you hear HR, if at all, really come out and be like, ‘Hey, you did this person wrong, and we’re going to fix this,’ unless we notice there’s a crazy lawsuit pending. But if that happens, then typically, HR backs out, legal steps in, and you’re getting some type of package.”
Amplifying Black and Brown Voices by Providing Resources and Capital
I’m just a middle-aged lady in Raleigh, N.C. So I don’t have any answers in this world, but I know that through listening to the Living Corporate podcast and surrounding myself with other smart and idea-oriented people. I asked Zach about this moment in time and what he wanted us to know about him, his community, and what others can do to help.
“I think people need to understand that Black and Brown people in this moment do not need your advice. We need your things. OK? OK. I’m going to say it one more time. Black and Brown people do not need your advice. We need your things.
“So there’s a concept right now, there’s kind of like an underlying attitude right now that like, what we need to do right now is invest in programs and things that essentially educate Black people. And education is great. And if you look at it, it’s not radical, nor is it new to Black culture or Black communities to introduce education.
“We actually are very passionate about education, so much so that we create our own colleges. What Black people do need, as opposed to being told what to do, is to have the resources and access and capital that you have to do the things that you do.”
“If you’re asking like, what can you do in this moment? What is it you can really do tangibly? It’s about what can you give? What can you give up? What can you share? For you, when I say you, I mean the generalized you, not you, Laurie. For you to give me something, it could just be as much as you just forwarding my brand deck to your contact at Apple or introducing me to your friend who works at Google. And that one thing alone, that’s you sharing a bit of your capital, your access. It goes so far. It goes so, so far.
“So that’s the one charge I want to leave with everyone who’s listening to this is like, we don’t need your advice. We need your things.”
[bctt tweet=’Diversity and inclusion ‘needs to so fundamentally change that you may as well use the language ‘dismantle’ because how it’s structured today is still about maintaining power and control.’ ~ Zach Nunn. Hear more on Punk Rock HR.” via=”no”]
KEY TAKEAWAYS
DO WE NEED TO DEFUND THE ENTIRE INSTITUTION OF HR?
It is the institution of HR and corporate America that has gotten us here: a country riddled with racism. The job description of HR professionals is simply to follow the guidelines in a binder, put together by lawyers to mitigate risk. It wasn’t built for justice, equity, or accountability. HR operates like the police of an organization. Just like there are nice people who happen to be police, there are nice people who happen to be in HR. However, the function and structure of human resources are bent towards protecting the company. Because of this, there is no way we can continue with the system, these technology platforms, and these policies and expect a different result. To make any progress, we have to dismantle it.
HOW CAN WE KEEP THIS ANTI RACISM MOVEMENT FROM BECOMING ANOTHER CYCLICAL THING AND MAKE IT A TRUE RECONSTRUCTIVE MOMENT?
There’s a cycle where marginalized people get rights, there is whitelash, and then they lose those rights. This cycle has occurred since reconstruction, explaining why the Civil Rights Movement was all about fighting for rights colored people should have had a hundred years prior. Even though we are in a post-racial society, we are still talking about black equity and civil rights like we talked about them in 1964. In order to make this a true reconstructive moment, we have to break the patterns we’ve followed for years. We must start instituting radical changes that last.
WHY IT IS CRUCIAL FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO BE GIVING OUR CAPITAL?
Black and brown people do not need the advice of white people. They need their things. Instead of telling them what to do, white people need to be providing them the access and capital that they have to do the things that they do. Black people just don’t have the same access to capital, be it financial, social, or something else.
People in This Episode
- Zach Nunn: Living Corporate Podcasts, LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter
Full Transcript
Zach Nunn:
So I personally think that diversity and inclusion, as it stands today, is done. This moment shows that, save these shining North Stars as an industry, it has failed. Dr. Pamela Newkirk, when we had her on a couple of weeks ago, we talked about this. And she wrote an entire book and did a ton of qualitative and quantitative analysis on the fact that this space has not “moved the needle” when it comes to true equity or justice. And so my hope in the de-centering of the white folks as they de-center themselves, that there’s a radical re-imagining of what it really means to do this work. And if that means that we change the name or whatever, I don’t care. It needs to so fundamentally change that you may as well use the language “dismantle” because how it’s structured today is still about maintaining power and control.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Hey, everybody. I’m Laurie Ruettimann. Welcome to a special summer edition of Punk Rock HR. All summer long, we’ll be bringing you encore episodes of Punk Rock HR that I absolutely love. We’ve re-edited them, remixed them, we’ve made them a little fresh, but the conversation is really important. So, if you’ve missed the episode the first time around or you heard it but you want to hear a fresh take, sit back and enjoy this special summer encore edition of Punk Rock HR.
Hey, everybody. I’m Laurie Ruettimann. welcome to Punk Rock HR. Today’s guest is Zach Nunn. He’s a change management consultant and one of the co-founders of a podcast and a movement called Living Corporate. If you haven’t heard that podcast, stop what you’re doing, pause this podcast, and head on over to iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, wherever you get your shows, and download Living Corporate today. It is terrific.
The goal of that platform is to tell Black and Brown stories related to the world of work. And I’m here to tell you that you think you’ve heard good conversations about diversity, inclusion, equity, and belonging, but you have not heard Living Corporate and you have not heard Zach. You listen to Punk Rock HR for big ideas to do things differently and I think I’ve delivered that today. So sit tight and I’ll be right back with more Zach Nunn and Punk Rock HR. Hey, Zach. Welcome to the podcast.
Zach Nunn:
What’s going on, Laurie? How are you doing?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh my God. It’s been a long time coming. I’m glad you’re here.
Zach Nunn:
You know what? I’m glad we’ve finally been able to connect. How are your kittens doing?
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh, they’re good. Well, we had four and we’ve adopted out now three. We’re down to one. Do you want a kitten, Zach?
Zach Nunn:
So here’s the thing. Emotionally, I’m very vulnerable and I could easily take a kitten, but I’m not ready to take a kitten. I already have a whole daughter. So I want to focus on getting her maybe to the point where she can take care of a kitten, and then we’ll get a kitten.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, you’re a smart man. You’ve got your priorities aligned. And I’m so glad you’re here because there are so many good things to talk about in the world, about the work that you’re doing. But let’s start off with the big picture, because people come on Punk Rock HR because they have big ideas and they’re doing great work in the world. So when you describe what you’re doing in the world right now, what is it?
Zach Nunn:
So look, my goal is to create platforms and spaces that amplify and center Black and Brown voices at work. That’s what I’m excited about doing. And I do that through my job as a Big Four consultant. Now, Big Four are accounting firms, but I’m not an accountant. I’m more like in the change management or transformation, leadership development, more on the people side. But I also pursue that passion, or that vision, that purpose to my own platform called Living Corporate.
Laurie Ruettimann:
So tell us a little bit about Living Corporate.
Zach Nunn:
All Right. Cool. So look, before I talk about Living Corporate, I got to talk a little bit about my story because my story helps to inform why Living Corporate is a thing.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh God. Please. Yeah. In fact, that’s why you’re here.
Zach Nunn
So background, both sides of my family are from Mississippi. In fact, I can trace my paternal side of the family to a small plantation in Mississippi called Shuqualak, Miss. And so Shuqualak, back in the 1800s, was a very booming town. Because just economically, it was centered around this plantation, the Nunn plantation. And so it was a cotton plantation, and then transitioned more into manufacturing for World War I. But anyway, that’s as far back as I know my family goes, which is like 1850-something. So on my dad’s side of the family, that’s them. I’m a second generation reader on my dad’s side. My dad taught my grandfather how to read. That was part of him. My dad and my Uncle Clancy. Uncle Clancy and Ed, my dad, taught my grandfather how to read to help him get a promotion at a job in John Deere, actually, when he moved from Mississippi to Illinois.
So that’s my dad’s side. Then on my mom’s side, I’m the first man to start and graduate from a four-year university. So my cousin, Chris, what’s up, man? He’s the first man to graduate from college, but he started at a junior college, and then he finished at Jackson State, and I’m the first man to start and finish at a four-year university. So the background and the reason I’m sharing this is because I want to give context as to when I graduated from college, I graduated from college, the University of Houston, go Coogs, I graduated a year early, and I didn’t really have a lot of people in my family who could help me navigate the corporate world. Of course, they could talk to me about “do the best you can,” and I got wisdom, but I didn’t get people talking to me about how to navigate these invisible rules of these majority-white spaces.
And so I had to learn all that on my own, and I picked that up through putting myself out there. “Hey, can you be a mentor? Hey, can you help me? Hey, can you sponsor me?” Not halfway knowing what all these things meant and being turned down several, several times or, if I wasn’t wholly turned down, maybe I’d get a nugget of wisdom here, a nugget of wisdom there. And so I kind of piecemeal-ed all that together over eight years of a career so far. So I’m a manager, again, in consulting. I’ve had a pretty decent career, and I’ve been able to do some really cool things. And I would say I’m progressing as I should progress as I look across my cohort, just terms of age and whatever. And all this stuff is relative, but you know what I mean. I’m doing well. I’m doing moderately well.
But I had to ask myself, Laurie, like, “OK, what does it look like for people that look like me and who share my story? Because my story is not very rare. What does it look like to create a platform or create access to the real-talk conversations I’ve been blessed to have on a platform that’s free?” And that’s Living Corporate. Living Corporate, our tagline is “Real Talk in a Corporate World.” We talk to all types of people. So I’m going to shoutout a couple of people, just as an example of the type of folks we talk to. So we’ve interviewed Dr. Robin DiAngelo, author of “White Fragility.” We’ve interviewed Dr. Pamela Newkirk, who’s the author of “Diversity, Inc.” We’ve interviewed Michael C. Bush, who’s the CEO of Great Place to Work. We’ve interviewed God-is Rivera, who is the global director of culture and community at Twitter.
We’ve interviewed leaders from Facebook and Google and Accenture. We’ve interviewed Janet Pope, who’s the leader of diversity and inclusion of North America for Capgemini. We’ve interviewed a lot of different people, elected officials, activists. We’ve talked to DeRay McKesson. We’ve talked to Howard Bryant from ESPN. We’ve talked to a lot of different people and fairly big names with significant brands around them, and we’re having conversations that are really authentic about navigating these spaces. And we do it through understanding their stories, and asking them the pointed questions, and having those conversations that frankly you’re just not going to have at work, you’re not going to have even in your diversity and inclusion program. So you’re just not going to have these types of conversations that we’re having.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Well, I want to talk about those conversations, but I want to talk about the “we,” because you are not alone at Living Corporate. So who joins you? Who’s having those conversations with you?
Zach Nunn:
So who’s having those conversations with me? Yeah. So we have a team. And first of all, a side note, you’re doing a great job. I appreciate you letting me talk, and wax, and then you come in and make sure I stay where you want me to go. That’s really good.
Laurie Ruettimann:
No, no, no, I mean, I’m a podcast host. But honestly, I get in the way of my guests all the time. But I do want to know more about your team because I think, first of all, getting a podcast out every week like you do, and sometimes multiple times a week, takes a village. So who’s doing it with you?
Zach Nunn:
Yeah. So that’s a really good point. Yeah. We drop actually three episodes a week, every single week. We have not missed in a year and a half.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh my God. That’s such hard work.
Zach Nunn:
Yeah. Well, it is. And so our team is incredible because, so when we talk about Real Talk in a Corporate World, it’s not just about having these long-form conversations. We want to create options for people who may not have the time to listen to a 45-minute conversation. What does it look like to create career tips, and simple career tips, and then medium-sized career conversations? And so that’s where we have the rest of our team. So we have Tristan Layfield, Tristan Layfield is a resume and career consultant. And so Tristan has a show every Thursday called Tristan’s Tips. And so he’s literally talking about like, here are some basic things around resume, networking, career management.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I loved his one on LinkedIn and how it’s time. Don’t let your LinkedIn profile go. Really good.
Zach Nunn:
Yes. Listen, shout out to Tristan. He does phenomenal work. He’s an overall great person, and he’s a great podcaster, and he has wonderful insights. And so that’s Tristan. And so then on Saturdays, we do this thing where we switch up. So we drop one episode every Saturday, but we switch up between either The Linkup with Latesha … And so that’s Latesha Byrd. Latesha Byrd is an executive career and leadership coach, diversity and inclusion coach. And she is phenomenal.
So she’s talking about equity, networking, getting the bag. She does quite a bit. And her platform continues to grow. She’s graced us by being a part of our team. And so we’re really thankful for her. And so she talks a little bit, she talks more of those like maybe 15-, 20-minute episodes and they’re different, shorter topics. So think about Tristan’s Tips, but extended a little bit longer. And sometimes Latesha will also be talking directly to executives and stuff. So think about that, almost like a shot in the arm. It’s very good content from that perspective.
Laurie Ruettimann:
I like it. Like a daily vitamin or a weekly one. Yeah.
Zach Nunn:
Yo, I like that. Yeah. Like a daily vitamin. And so she shares a Saturday. So basically, she drops two episodes a month. And then you have Amy C. Waninger. Amy C. Waninger is the CEO of Lead at Any Level. And so she’s a public speaker, an educator, a coach. She’s really focused on inclusive leadership behaviors. So she has a book called “Network Beyond Bias,” which is phenomenal. It’s really pivoted and pointed to white leaders, thinking about, what does it really look like to examine your network and move beyond some of the biases, both conscious and unconscious, to extend and engage Black and Brown folks, LGBTQ/queer folks, trans, nonbinary folks? What does it look like to really have an intersectional and an inclusive network? Because if your network is inclusive, then you’re going to be able to effect change and really drive a more inclusive world.
Zach Nunn:
And so her work, what she talks about on Living Corporate is, she has a show called See It to Be It. So, See It to Be It, it’s like, she’s talking to Black and Brown professionals, and she’s having these very interesting technical discussions with these people. So it’s a real talk about their job. And so like the idea of like, you can’t be what you can’t see. She’s interviewing newscasters and underwriters and lawyers and media professionals. And she’s literally talking to them about the nuances of their job, and she’ll also talk about what it looks like or what it means to be them with their identity in their job.
And so all of that comes together with the help of Aaron DiCaprio, who is our producer and manager. He does all the admin work. I mean, he is the connective tissue. If you want to talk about a glue guy, that’s Aaron. He’s phenomenal. In fact, he’s probably going to take whatever, all this stuff … because you know how we do it behind the scenes. You take this content and we’re going to promote it and stuff. Aaron’s going to be the one that loads this all into the queue and makes sure it gets promoted. He’s a beast. So it’s that team. And then we also have Sheneisha. Sheneisha is another host and she’ll come on and she’ll do some of those longer-form Tuesday conversations. And then we have Ade. And so Ade is also a host. And so she does a lot of those one-on-one conversations too. So it’s a pretty extensive team and we do a lot of work. And to your point, it takes a village, and I’m just really proud.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Zach, I was just amazed at how deep the talent is on your bench.
Zach Nunn:
Yeah.
Laurie Ruettimann:
This is more than just a podcast. It’s a community, it’s a movement. And I think that’s what really struck me when I first learned about Living Corporate and discovered what you’re all about. It’s not just a weekly podcast where you’re talking about diversity and inclusion and HR. You’re really hitting work, power, politics, money, systems — all the things that make the world work or not work. So this is bigger than just HR.
Zach Nunn:
I just, I appreciate you. I appreciate you. First of all, your voice is great.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Oh my goodness.
Zach Nunn:
And then you’re saying all these pleasant things about me and my platform. I just feel warm and fuzzy inside. So I just want to thank you for that.
Laurie Ruettimann:
You’re making me blush. All right. Enough of that. I’m amazed at the level of conversation because podcasting is such a weird art form where you only get like 30 or 40 minutes. And oftentimes, the conversations are superficial. And you guys … I mean, we’re rated mature for a reason. You guys are talking about some real shit over there. Yeah, I mean, there’s no other way to say that. Thinking about the one podcast, the episode that you did a couple of weeks ago, and I know you probably know the one I’m talking about, where you asked white D&I professionals to get the hell out of the way. You want to talk about that episode?
Zach Nunn:
Yeah. And I don’t know if I said it like that. But yeah, I mean, that was the sentiment so I can own that. That’s fine. Yeah. So look, I think, here’s the thing, it was. .. So for context and background again, because I love stories, but this matters, is that I did not know George Floyd personally, but he and I had very close networks. So when he was in Houston and he was doing ministry, the same people that they showed of him — there was a picture of George Floyd, where he has his arms wrapped around some people and he has a Bible in his hand. So all of those people in that picture with George Floyd, I knew them. I know them personally. I still talk to all of them right now. Some of them were and are my mentors.
And so when I was recording the content about just this moment — because all of a sudden, it felt like to me, everyone just opened their eyes and could see the reality of what Black and Brown folks, specifically in this moment, Black people have been living with for 400-plus years. And so what was challenging for me at that time was like, OK, first of all, I have these people who have claimed to know this space and know this work, all of a sudden have all this new language that they didn’t want to say before. Now they’re using it around racism and white supremacy. And then I have people who have either harmed me in the past or been unwilling to have frank conversations with me about race, now reaching out to me to one, either ask for my advice and try to leverage my thought leadership for whatever thing that they have going on, or give me some really weird, empty platitude like, “I’m standing with you. My heart is with you.” And I’m like, “What does all that mean?”
And so I recorded it. And I’m thankful that I did, I recorded it in a point of exhaustion, Laurie, because it’s like, what are we actually doing? And the reality is the fact that so many corporations are still scrambling for what it means to really engage and center Black lives, I think that that means there’s been large institutional failures of what we typically consider our diversity and inclusion initiatives. And I think that, in this moment, the reason why I said that about, I think I said, “de-center yourself,” I said that because if we’re really talking about making some true changes and really engaging this particular people group,
it’s obvious that those who have been in power have failed to do so. Because if they hadn’t been failing to do so, there wouldn’t be such a strong uptick in people and all these external contractors getting hired, and all these folks getting exposed, and executives and former leaders suing their companies. This moment points to the fact that we need to do something different, and the time has long passed for us to do something different. So please, move out of the way, seed your power, use your access to help amplify somebody else who actually is passionate about the work and has the expertise of their lived experience, plus the passion around the space to do something about it. And I still feel that way.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. I can hear it in your voice. When I heard your podcast, I had two thoughts. The first is similar to what you just said, what got you here, won’t get you there. So all of these individuals in positions of power have clearly been complicit or just blew it, and it’s time for them to step out of the way. They’re not the ones who are going to deliver on social justice, on racial equality, on inclusion, all of that. But I was also thinking we have these systems in place, and does it make sense to just de-center ourselves and seed power or do we need to burn this to the ground? Do we need to burn HR to the ground? And this is a conversation I’ve been having for a very long time. It’s like the thesis of my work. But if what got us here won’t get us there, isn’t that really the institution of HR? It’s the institution of corporate America. Burn it the F down.
Zach Nunn:
You know what? Yeah.
Laurie Ruettimann:
How do you react to that?
Zach Nunn:
Well, first of all, I mean, this is why I wanted to have you on Living Corporate to talk about this very thing. I do have challenges with HR as an institution. And I think I said… I didn’t get into the details, but I started with a large retail company and I was an HR manager. And I remember having these very altruistic visions of what my job really entailed, when in fact, those were big box retailers. So HR’s job was to follow the binder. And that binder was, as I look back now… Because I was 20, yeah, I was 20 at the time, so that binder was really created by lawyers to mitigate risk in every capable way. It wasn’t really built … That binder, which you are instructed to follow to the letter, was not really built for any type of justice or equity or even accountability for that matter. It was built from the lens of risk management.
And so when I think about HR today, I think that continues. And I think that HR is so, it’s empowered. So I’m not trying to demonize the space. I just think in a lot of ways, they kind of operate as the police. They’re kind of like the police of an organization. So the police — I’m not about to get in some conversation about defunding the police, even though the police need to be radically defunded. But I am going to talk about the fact, functionally,, the police are really like an enforcement force. They do not provide resources and aid, and they are the extension of, and the enforcement of larger systems at play. And so when you think about human resources and not, again, just like there are great police, there are good, nice people who happen to be police, there are nice people who happen to be in human resources. But the function and structure of human resources is bent towards protecting the company. And this is very common knowledge. This is not a Black thing or a Brown thing.
Laurie Ruettimann:
No, yeah. And dude, I think you’re being generous, actually. And I really feel as if taking someone who’s Brown or Black or queer and saying, “Here, operate in this traditional D&I role that reports up to the chief people officer,” is just setting yet another individual up for failure. And I’ve been toying with writing this article actually called “Defund HR.” And so this is so top of mind for me because there is absolutely no way we can continue with this system, with these technology platforms, with these policies, and expect a different result. I mean, it’s just insane. And I think we get the HR we deserve, or at least the people who are in power want. And in order to make any progress, we’ve really got to dismantle it. So I’m glad to hear that this resonates with you.
Zach Nunn:
No, well, it does. So here’s the thing. So human resources, they’re really fangless because of the power dynamics. So again, they become an executor of whatever the company’s will is. So they work very hand-in-hand with legal. Very rarely will you hear HR, if at all, really come out and be like, “Hey, you did this person wrong and we’re going to fix this,” unless we notice there’s a crazy lawsuit pending. But if that happens, then typically, HR backs out, legal steps in, and you’re getting some type of package.
Laurie Ruettimann:
But Zach, I don’t mean to interrupt, but to your point earlier about white people de-centering themselves from D&I, does it even matter, or do we need to radically overhaul D&I?
Zach Nunn:
So I personally think that diversity and inclusion, as it stands today, is done. This moment shows that, save these shining North Stars, as an industry, it has failed. Dr. Pamela Newkirk, when we had her on a couple of weeks ago, we talked about this. And she wrote an entire book and did a ton of qualitative and quantitative analysis on the fact that this space has not “moved the needle” when it comes to true equity or justice. And so, my hope in the de-centering of the white folks as they de-center themselves, that there’s a radical reimagining of what it really means to do this work. And if that means that we change the name or whatever, I don’t care. It needs to so fundamentally change that you may as well use the language “dismantle” because how it’s structured today is still about maintaining power and control.
So you think about the fact that there’s been cycles of this. There’s a corporate professional pattern of this too, where marginalized people get rights, and then there’s “whitelash,” and then they lose those rights, then they get the rights, and then they lose them. And so that cycle has happened since reconstruction, which is why the civil rights movement was us just fighting for rights that we technically should already have had 100 years before that. And so when you think about corporate, why is it that it follows the same patterns? Why is it that we’re talking about Black equity and civil rights the same ways that we talked about it in 1964?
I thought that we were a post-racial society. We have Barack Obama in office, but now we have a new regime, we have all these rollbacks, and those rollbacks extended into the corporate space. And then, we’re not even going to talk about SHRM, their complicity and position in this space, and how they haven’t really stepped up, the hashtag @fixitSHRM, and the access and power that they have that they choose not to use. And so it follows these patterns. So then the question for me is just like, “OK, what does it really look like for this not to be another cyclical thing and to really be a true reconstructive moment?” That’s where my curiosity goes.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Yeah. Mine as well. The easy thing to do would be for me to write an article called “Defund HR.” I can write that in my sleep. But the hard thing to do, and the thing that is getting in my way of writing it is, what’s next? What is next? Because it’s really not about HR. It’s about the world of work. It’s really about the world.
Zach Nunn:
Right.
Laurie Ruettimann:
And I mean, what the hell do I know? I’m just a middle-aged lady in Raleigh, North Carolina. So I don’t have any answers at all in this world, but I know that through listening to your podcast and surrounding myself with other smart people, other people have really good ideas. So I’m really grateful that you came on the podcast today to talk a little bit about what you do. And what else do people need to know about you, Zach, in this moment, and your community, and what you’re doing? I mean, you’re raising a daughter, you’re working. I mean, you’ve got a lot going on. If people are curious and want to learn more, what’s new and interesting in your world?
Zach Nunn:
So what’s new and interesting is definitely the fact that I have a daughter. Her name is Emory Jean Nunn. She is going on 4 months old. And I have a lovely, beautiful life partner, who is my wife, named Candis Gabrielle Price-Nunn. And we are struggling beautifully together through this new normal in a new normal, with a child, working from home during the global pandemic.
Laurie Ruettimann:
God bless you, man, yeah. I mean, I’ve got kittens, and it’s complicated enough. You’ve got somebody who needs you night and day.
Zach Nunn:
Right. Right. But I’m thankful. So that’s about me. And that’s really my life, that’s my whole world. I think about my identity as rooted in my faith in God and me being a family man. I really just, that’s what I want to be. Now, what people can do? OK. So check this out, Laurie, I’m looking at your … you got the official badge on Twitter, you have all these followers on LinkedIn, you have a great network. And I think about the kind of people that you talk to and the people that you reach, and I would imagine I’m talking to a lot of white folks right now, or that’s a large part of your audience. I think people need to understand that Black and Brown people in this moment do not need your advice. We need your things. OK? OK. I’m going to say it one more time. Black and Brown people do not need your advice. We need your things.
So there’s a concept right now, there’s kind of like an underlying attitude right now, that what we need to do right now is invest in programs and things that essentially educate Black people. And education is great. And if you look, it’s not radical nor is it new to Black culture or Black communities to introduce education. We actually are very passionate about education, so much so that we create our own colleges. What Black people do need, as opposed to being told what to do, is to have the resources and access and capital that you have to do the things that you do. So I’ve been doing this networking thing, and I’ve been talking to people about the platform. When I show people Living Corporate as a platform, Laurie, people go, “Oh my God. You don’t just have an idea. You have a whole thing.” I’m like, “Yes,” and like, “I’m not the only person.”
That’s a common story of Black folks in America, that we don’t actually need people to show us how to do things. A lot of us are scrappy and put things together, and frankly, are much further ahead than our counterparts. What we don’t have is the same access to capital, be it financial or social, for it to blow up and grow. And so when I say, I don’t need your advice, I need your things, what I mean is I need you to help me either by connecting me to somebody, either donating to Living Corporate. There’s a donate button, that’s what I need. I need you to actually put something on the line for me.
If you’re asking like, what can you do in this moment? What is it you can really do tangibly? It’s about what can you give? What can you give up? What can you share? For you, when I say you, I mean the generalized you, not you, Laurie. For you to give me something, it could just be as much as you just forwarding my brand deck to your contact at Apple or introducing me to your friend who works at Google. And that one thing alone, that’s you sharing a bit of your capital, your access. It goes so far. It goes so, so far. So that’s the one charge I want to leave with everyone who’s listening to this is like, we don’t need your advice. We need your things.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Love it. I think you’re going to find that this audience is really receptive to that. I mean, people who listen to Punk Rock HR aren’t your typical corporate lackeys. I can say that definitely about this audience. But the other thing is they embrace big ideas like universal basic income. They embrace big people. They embrace big movements. They want the big ideas. So I love your challenge. I love your ideas. I love your messaging. And I’m so glad that we’re connected, Zach. And again, if people want to connect with you, of course, they can go to Living Corporate. Anywhere else that you want to send them? LinkedIn, Twitter, any of your favorites?
Zach Nunn:
You know what? Go to the website, man. Go to living-corporate.com, OK? Living-corporate.com. Please say the dash.
Laurie Ruettimann:
Hey, everybody. I hope you enjoyed that episode of Punk Rock HR. Whether you’re new to it or you heard it before, everything you need is always in the show notes, and you can find them at laurieruettimann.com/punkrockhr. Now, I hope you’re having a great summer, and it was an honor to spend some time with you today. Thanks again for listening and we’ll see you next time on Punk Rock HR.