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We won’t pay UC rent element as your wife gets Retirement Pension

Andrew Dutton
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Claimant age 63, wife age 68 (receives SRP)

UC claim three months ago as husband newly out of work.

Private rented accommodation, not temporary or exempt. No pre-existing ‘pensioner’ claims for HB/PC.

UC have refused from the beginning of the claim to pay the rent element - they have calculated it but never paid it.

Claimant has been told UC cannot pay it because his partner gets SRP.

Claimant had a meeting with DWP yesterday, showed them an advice email from us containing the obvious - was told ‘they’re wrong, we’re right’. the person they spoke to even asked a ‘more experienced’ colleague, who confirmed that rent element can’t be paid when one partner gets SRP.

HB, of course, say they can’t help.

Formal complaint to UC - meanwhile, rent arrears mount and the landlord is moving towards possession action.

On top of this, UC is deducting monthly income of ESA for the wife. When told she doesn’t get ESA because she is 68 and on SRP, they suggested claimants contact ESA ‘to cancel your claim’. Although this was done, ESA is still being taken off as income.

There is also a mysterious ‘other’ deduction, claimant told ‘you will have to find out what that is’.

Complaint made.

I despair, I despair, I despair, I despair, I despair, I despair!

 

Paul_Treloar_AgeUK
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Have they got the mixed-age couples rules arse about face? That is completely absurd Andrew, have you tried the partnership manager?

Andrew Dutton
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Hi Paul

I think they have.

I’ve just sent a Journal entry/Authorisation so once that is up I’ll escalate.

What worries me is the ‘checking’; it indicates they all believe the same thing in that office and aren’t minded to ‘check’ any further.

Some claimants would back down at this point and sink out of view, get evicted etc.

So angry I’ve put a bit in the complaint that if the rent issue goes to court, an application will be made to compel someone from UC to attend and explain themselves.

Gad, gad and thrice gad, to borrow yet again from a friend.

Andrew Dutton
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From client:

‘my landlord has just been and handed me a letter giving us 3 options. 1, pay 6 months rent or 2, vacate the property within 14 days and return all keys or 3, go to court’

I am waxing wroth. More wroth than usual.

Paul_Treloar_AgeUK
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I’d strongly suggest some housing advice as that’s basically verging on illegal eviction aside from anything else.

Could also contact LA Homelessness team and make an application for assistance - if one of the pressing issues causing a threat of homelessness is to do with benefits, they also have a duty to help your client resolve and it would obviously be in their interests as well.

Andrew Dutton
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Agreed. Can’t raise client at the moment, but I have advised him to act - hoping he is out seeing the LA team as advised.

Hopefully both DWP and landlord will feel the ceiling fall in on them soon….

Elliot Kent
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I think its rather unlikely that the homeless department would have either the desire or ability to assist in resolving the issue with UC’s patently wrong decision making.

Clearly the letter does not change the client’s position in relation to the property. The landlord would need to serve valid notice on either a s8 (on grounds) or s21 (without grounds) to begin the possession process and if the tenants don’t leave by the expiry of the notice period, it would be open to the landlord to apply to the court. Legal aid is potentially available from the point that notice is served.

It is usually worth giving the landlord a ring in these sorts of cases as there is often a willingness to show a bit of forbearance when an appropriate professional rings them up and explains that there is a legitimate benefit issue and that its likely to be resolved with arrears paid given time.

Andrew Dutton
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Claimant has put a statement on the UC Journal outlining all the problems, requesting urgent help and making a formal complaint about persistent wrong advice.

Response: ‘For any complaints can you kindly direct them to gov.uk’.

And that is, er, it. Not even a link provided to the relevant bit of gov.uk.

Luckily a Partnership Advisor has responded to our request to look into things and with any luck there will be a decent outcome shortly.

But once again, UC leaps into action not to offer the urgent assistance requested but to bat the problem to someone else. To a website, indeed.

Rosie W
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Do you think they’ve got/are getting worse? They seem to ignore pretty much everything our Deputyship team puts on journals these days. Oddly we’ve had more success with the helpline.

The escalation numbers just seem to ring out.

Andrew Dutton
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Rosie W - 04 November 2021 09:41 AM

Do you think they’ve got/are getting worse? They seem to ignore pretty much everything our Deputyship team puts on journals these days. Oddly we’ve had more success with the helpline.

The escalation numbers just seem to ring out.

Getting worse? Yes, I think so. But from the very start there have been the problems of wrong advice, inventing ‘rules’ on the wing, ignoring journal entries and refusing to disclose relevant information.

It would be interesting to know what others think.

Jo_Smith
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Try your ACSSL, Andrew. Daphne sent out the contacts list recently- or I can share one with you. If there are any vulnerabilities or safeguarding duties (and I am sure you could come up with some, for elderly couple, in a cold winter, facing eviction etc etc).
ACSSSLs are very powerful and normally cut through the bs like a hot knife. Good luck xx

Jo_Smith
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Andrew Dutton - 04 November 2021 10:53 AM

Getting worse? Yes, I think so. But from the very start there have been the problems of wrong advice, inventing ‘rules’ on the wing, ignoring journal entries and refusing to disclose relevant information.

It would be interesting to know what others think.

My opinion, after 2.5 yrs on HTC:
Frontline staff: “poorly trained” would be an euphemism. Further, many cannot put a coherent sentence together. Defensive and arrogant. Massive and unwarranted gatekeeping. Nice ones are rare like diamonds. When we get to speak to one, we run to our Workplace and tell others!
Mid-level (case managers, work coaches, team leaders): unless you have a good, informal working relationship- forget about it. Unwilling to discuss or learn. Difficult to contact. Will not acknowledge mistakes even if their feet were put to the fire. Silo thinking on cosmic scale. Extremely overloaded and overwhelmed. Do not understand or follow their own guidance and get offended when we quote it. Fragile due to work stress :(
Higher ups: met only few. They can do everything and are very busy and urbane. Omnipotent and rare. Yes sir, thank you sir, I am just a little citizens advice person, I beg a minute of your time. They don’t need regs. They cut through them like a scythe. You can never see them.

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District
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Andrew Dutton - 04 November 2021 10:53 AM
Rosie W - 04 November 2021 09:41 AM

Do you think they’ve got/are getting worse? They seem to ignore pretty much everything our Deputyship team puts on journals these days. Oddly we’ve had more success with the helpline.

The escalation numbers just seem to ring out.

Getting worse? Yes, I think so. But from the very start there have been the problems of wrong advice, inventing ‘rules’ on the wing, ignoring journal entries and refusing to disclose relevant information.

It would be interesting to know what others think.

Getting worse…....................same historical issues keep recurring again and again….............untidy tenancies, proof of rent i.e. bar set way beyond guidance, People found to have LCW or/and LCWRA being asked to supply fit notes, delays in paying arrears, examples of clients being found to have LCW and conditionality not being amended, avoidable overpayments i.e. official error and inability to offset, clients being told not to claim ESA, claim UC instead, delays in referring for WCA and in the case of one recent client with a progressive disease affecting the central nervous system, as she had a child under 1 years-old, advised by DWP not to continue provide fit notes, wasn’t referred for a WCA until we intervened. I could go on and on.

We are continually having to bandy legislation, share links to HOC library guidance from Rightsnet resources. We are a little first tier agency reliant on unpaid workers (as well as the demands on client, there are the demands on our colleagues) being effectively asked to do things associated with second tier agencies for new claims and maintaining claims. MR’s taking up to a year.

SAR’s to get the UC account / journal, UC account/ journal arrive redacted to almost dark comedic surreal proportions.

Our MP and CPAG’s EWS get a regular flow of the ridiculous to the sublime.

Ps Ta very much for the therapy, very cathartic!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andrew Dutton
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Anecdotally, the training for new DWP staff appears to consist in part of a sort of indoctrination about how wonderful UC is…...

Andrew Dutton
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This is all getting looked into.

It appears that the ESA claim, which goes back to at least 2015, really was still open in August 2021 when the UC claim was made, but not in payment as the person was of course on RP.

I have had a thought - is there any way in which Reg 19 of the UC (Transitional Provisions) Regs can be dragged into this, to carry over the ESA status to UC?

I’m probably being an over-ambitious fule, as the Reg requires the claimant to be ‘entitled to’ ESA on the date of the UC claim as opposed to ‘their claim was left open because someone at DWP couldn’t be mithered to close it’ - but just in case…..

Paul_Treloar_AgeUK
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Her ESA award cannot as a matter of law have still be “open” when she reaches SPA - the condition about not having reached SPA would apply so there is no entitlement past SPA.

As such, reg.19 of the UC(TP) Regs can’t apply either.

Transition from old style ESA
19.—(1) This regulation applies where—

(a)an award of universal credit is made to a claimant who was entitled to old style ESA on the date on which the claim for universal credit was made or treated as made (“the relevant date”);

Given the problems they’re already having, I wouldn’t muddy the waters further trying to argue this one to be honest Andrew.

Andrew Dutton
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‘Twas only whimsical notion on a rainy Friday…..

bristol_1
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What I’ve sometimes found with “still open” benefit claims affecting UC, is that there is an error on the relevant department’s Customer Information System where no end date has been given for that benefit. If there’s no end date on CIS, UC treat as the benefit as still in payment even though no payments are being made. Usually a call to ESA to get CIS end date applied then liaise with UC. Has happened with ESA, CA, a good few times.

In one bizarre case recently UC were deducting IB. Client has never ever received IB but his long-since-departed ex-partner claimed it years ago. Phone to IB, confirm no live claim, IB messaged UC, all sorted. No idea where that one came from though!