Morgan +4 Forum

I have had this car for about 3 months or so and slowly I am doing all that is possible in my spare time to get it ship shape :-)

The brake fluid level is a bit low and I need to top it up before changing anything

What is the correct brake fluid for these models

The fluid there is pinkish color

I have to do a 20 mile run next few days and there is little time to replace it
To top it up what can I use?
Help is appreciated

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I am always OK............. the trouble is with the others :-)

My concern is the pinkish colour, don't know what sort of brake fluid that is or it is old brake fluid that really should be changed. Have always used Castrol Brake Fluid DOT 4, synthetic brake fluid that exceeds DOT3 and DOT4 specs

I will give you two answers..one for the quick trip and the other after the quick trip.

SHORT AND LONG RUN

The danger is that you do not know what type of fluid you have in there now. We must ascertain that first and foremost because mixing DOT5 (an unwise fluid forced on the US MiIitary) MUST be checked out first. It is not compatible with all other brake fluids and deep sadness can result by mixing, even trace elements of one with the others.

1. Get a eye dropper and take some fluid from the reservoir.
2. Place it into a clean glass jar and add some clean water to the fluid.
3. Replace the lid and shake it well.
4. Let it stand for a few minutes.
5. If the water and the fluid have mixed thoroughly and can not be separately identified, then you have regular auto brake fluid. (DOT 3, DOT4, DOT 5.1 or LMA or even Bruce's Castrol Brake Fluid DOT 4/ They are all compatible and you can top up with any one
6. If the water and the fluid have not mixed, or have formed floating globs or separate levels then the fluid is DOT 5, incompatible with the others. You can only top up with DOT5.

Is that clear? (pun!)

Once you know what you have got, top it up with the appropriate fluid type.

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LONG RUN

I am not a fan of DOT 5 for a host of reasons. http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/brakefluids.html But if you got it, you should continue to use it. Any other option is a hassle.

If you do not have DOT 5 in your system, EUREKA! you can now use all the others. Some will have higher boiling points and some lower but they are all compatible. and will seamlessly blend. The only effect of blending will be to lower the boiling temperature of the common denominator of the fluids used, mitigated by their age. Blending DOT 5 with the others the risk of great problems..described by Greg Solow (and Girling)

I would also order a brake fluid tester https://amzn.to/2rqxDPx They are cute, easy to use, inexpensive, and keep you more vigilant. Brake/clutch fluid age and owners do NOT pay enough attention to them.

As for which of the compatible types you should choose...the more boil resistant the better. A wise method would be to do your full swap with the best every two years, and top up with any compatible fluid available when mogging. WATCHPOINT: Be careful, all the compatible fluids mentioned will painless remove your skin and your car paint with the greatest of ease. Simply take precautions and if there is a slip, simply wash it off thoroughly and immediately.

gmg

In my 60 Plus 4 I use Dot 3...however...
Recommend first step with an old car is to change all fluids and filters...that way you have a known base line...plus brake fluid is only good for 3-5 years max. The fluid should be clear...if discolored...it starting to go off. A complete fluid change will also give you a chance to look for chunks in fluids drained from transmission and rear end by changing fluids.
Recommend replacing the oil filter with a screw on filter....adapter available from:
Moss 800-667-7872...great source for all Triumph parts...my Morgan has a TR-3 engine
Morgan Motors of New England 888-345-6647...great catalog and US home of all things Morgan.
Neal Patton

My thanks to all who responded specially Lorne whose knowledge of Morgans and his sense of humour has no bounds :-)

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I am always OK............. the trouble is with the others :-)

I do not use DOT 5 Silicone Brake Fluid. I do use DOT 4.0 for lessor water absorption. I change the fluid 100% every 2 Years. I have not read GOMOG's advice for several Years. I noticed Lorne has added a bit more information. ie: How to tell Silicone from Glycol brake fluid. Good advice and lots of information on "GOMOG". If You have a question that You cannot find on "GOMOG" Email Lorne. That is what I do and have for many years. Lorne always responds. If You have some fear that Lorne does not know the answer. Ask Me! And I will ask Lorne. (grin)

Button

I should apologize. Admittedly, there are times since eMog when I have withdrawn. But Button is the Guardian of the Gate. I am always glad to see his address pop up in my inbox. We have different views on many things..but we do not let them stand in the way of our friendship.

As Button is aware, if I do not know an answer, (I have a very unusual memory for trivia but it is the only memory I have) I still very much enjoy research on everything. Couple that with an immense contact base of professional morgan people and experts on all continents and something will be forthcoming. The resultant doodling became gomog. The contacts are now very much a 2-way street..especially when it comes to part sourcing and component testing. There is nothing more remarkable about me other than I enjoy helping people. I spent my first years of Morgan ownership in a mogless area 3 x the size of Texas trying to fix things while possessing all the (lack of) automobile skills a judge is expected to have. (zilch!!) I know what it is to feel helpless in front of your mog. I didn't like it and I don't expect anyone does. Just the fact that someone is interested in your problem is enough to feel better about it.

However, I have found out what everyone else has in the last decade. That being on a podium makes one a target for a sad angry part of humanity. That is why there are no Morgan cognoscenti on forums anymore, like there were on emog. Unmonitored forums offer no protection against the inexplicable viciousness and invented "facts" that currently follows such people in every walk of life. Our community's legends are still alive and kicking, they merely went underground. I did so myself.

Like all these stalwarts, I am unsure about how handle this venom. If I fight back, the forum becomes toxic and collapses. If I write something like this post, Duncan or someone else will accuse me of being "sanctimonious". I am Canadian..it is very hard for me NOT to be sanctimonious and exceedingly polite! When I saw that this was a Canada-based forum..I figured I was safe. When I saw I was not, I left all forums (save French & German ones) for years.

I have absolutely no anger in me about ANYONE here. I am as bewildered as anyone at unbridled rage and abuse. There are so many excuses to hate these days....skin color, nationality, ethnicity, political views, religiosity, even a part time residence in another continent. I guess I fall into one of the hate slots (don't we all?). (shrug) I am trying to figure a way to deal with it. I prefer posting to forums before gomog. And though I constantly receive feedback for gomog from scores of people, not one of those who have criticized gomog has ever indicated any specific as to what and why. When I ask them directly, they remain silent. I am not looking for confrontation. I merely want to correct any errors

I am chuffed and gratified at all the supportive comments in the last 2 days, both public and the private. Does any one have any suggestions how to deal with this stuff? There is no monitor to appeal to. I cannot post ugliness for ugliness for more than a regretted moment (as that makes me part of the problem and a person I do NOT want to be). I can point out errors about me when attacked falsely...but that is silly and totally unnecessary for the people who know me. I can try to alter the style of my postings. I can refrain from indicating dangerous errors or alternatives posted here. Or I can leave if it is felt that is the best solution. (Problem is advertising sites like this one will not let you leave! Famous last words.

I for one besides a few others that I know are very well aware of your expert knowledge and like any family there are always disagreements but the ultimate goal is to preserve and prolong the life of our very special vehicles ( call it our Morgan family) that despite turbulences in the last 100 years in the automotive industry has managed to not only survive, but thrive beyond expectations. For that we have individuals like you guys to thank for until we hand the batten down to the next custodian of our pride and possession. Please continue.............. as you are doing a grand job along with Duncan and Button and many others. Thanks

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I am always OK............. the trouble is with the others :-)

Speaking of trivia, here is a little factoid I picked up somewhere. The Ford GT40 team was seen flushing with DOT3 brake fluid to their cars, which would seem to be a significant drawback when racing such a fast car since the minimum boiling point for DOT3 is less than DOT4.

But keep in mind that the minimum is just that. There is the dry boiling point (pure brake fluid) and wet boiling point (after the fluid has absorbed water). Although its wet boiling point was not adequate for racing, the Ford's own brand (Motorcraft) DOT3 had a much higher dry boiling point than required; in fact it was higher than any of the available DOT4 fluids. Since the fluid was going to be changed quite often, it made sense to use Motorcraft DOT3 fluid for racing.

Just to confuse things further (for us old heads) I now see brake fluid labeled as DOT3/DOT4. Presumably this was done to reduce confusion among younger buyers, who might not realize that DOT is simply a higher spec and can be used in a car that requires DOT3.

Some people alternately use two different colors of fluid so they can tell when the old fluid has been completely flushed out of the system. These are two I know of, although I'm not sure where to get them (my local FLAPS no longer carry the familiar name brands): ATE Super Blue and ATE Typ200 (or any other type of amber fluid).

Duncan

Greetings... Believe the Ate Super Blue brake juice is no longer available here due to its color. DOT has reserved the color blue for wind screen washer juice and nothing else can be blue (OK you guys on the other side of the big water, stop laughing). Ford HD truck juice was the equivalent of AP 600. We used it in race cars but my last trip to the Ford store found it no longer available. My current choice is Redline SL600. Dry boiling point is 600 F and wet is 400 F. Priced competitively with Ate at about $16US. Biggest favor you can do for your brake system is to change juice regularly every 2 years.

Tim(D.Y.M.)

Of course brake fluid boiling points are important. Some inherently have higher boiling points than others. And as they age, some are effected in this area more than others. But other factors come in. It all comes down to compressibility, doesn't it? The best brake fluid compresses the least.

Silicone (Dot 5), cold or hot, is more compressible than glycol fluids, which creates a "spongier" brake pedal, something which is unwanted, especially in racing. And these days, DOT 5.1 or other advanced fluids exceed the DOT 5 boiling point numbers.

Considering the compatibility of all non-silicone brake fluids, does it matter what is used to flush the system? I agree that DOT 3 is less-than-the-best if that is what they planned to use after the flushing. Personally, I use DOT 5.1 (which should NEVER be confused or mixed with DOT 5 silicone.) It has higher boiling points than DOT 5 and I can top it up with anything found a roadside garage anywhere. Manufacturers now shun the use of DOT 5.) But if that is what anyone has in their car now, don't change it. The risks of swapping back are not worth it.

Lorne



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-10 11:19 AM by GoMoG.

When I said, "flushed" I meant the fluid was changed. They were indeed using DOT3 as racing brake fluid.

Keep in mind that the Ford GT40's glory days were many decades ago and I doubt 5.1 existed back then. I would prefer to use it but have found none of the 7 or 8 local FLAPS (nor local big box stores which sell basic automotive supplies) carry it any more. And of course when I ask for it the employee assumes in error that I mean silicone-based fluid.

Duncan

Hi Duncan, If they were using DOT 3 as their brake racing fluid, rather than just flushing with it in anticipation of using something better but more expensive, then that lack of any logic is certainly worth mentioning. Like you, I cannot think of anything that would justify that. Haven't you found, as the years roll on, that group wisdom is more often correct than "guru" knowledge?

[/quote]Keep in mind that the Ford GT40's glory days were many decades ago and I doubt 5.1 existed back then. I would prefer to use it but have found none of the 7 or 8 local FLAPS (nor local big box stores which sell basic automotive supplies) carry it any more. And of course when I ask for it the employee assumes in error that I mean silicone-based fluid. Duncan [/quote]

Ditto. In the USA NAPA carry it, but it is wise to call ahead or have them order it. O'Reilly carries something supposedly even better than 5.1, a Bosch product https://www.boschautoparts.com/documents/101512/0/0/7c8c2217-78dd-0adc-c840-91edb62866a3 It is DOT 3, DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 compatible. I might try it as it is supposed to last 50% longer and I test my fluid regularly with my super duper new brake fluid tester.

In Canada, you can find such things of Amazon.ca, UAP, or Canadian Tire.

The UK is the luckiest, with Halfords carrying no less than three types of 5.1, SRAM, Valvoline and COMMA.

gmg

Lorne

Lorne -- as I mentioned in my original post, the GT40 race mechanics' justification was that that particular brand of DOT3 had a higher dry boiling point than any of the available DOT4 products. It exceeded the minimums by that much. Since they were constantly replacing the fluid the wet boiling point was not a consideration.

Greetings... If we are talking about the Ford GT40 from the 60's, they didn't use DOT3 or 4 brake juice. They may have used something like the HD Truck juice that we used later but it wasn't a DOT rated juice. The Department of Transportation (DOT) came into existence in April of 1967 and I doubt it was born complete with specifications for brake juice or anything else for that matter. I also doubt any of us have every boiled brake juice. I got the brakes hot enough in my hot rod Chevy Nova to experience friction material fade but the pedal stayed up and firm-no boiling. I was probably using Castrol LMA at that time. I think DOT3 or 4 is just fine for our street driven cars although I do like the idea of longer life (for the brake juice, not the driver) with the Bosch juice that Lorne mentioned.

Tim(D.Y.M.)